"What is your Biggest 'Hot Take' on anything Equine or Animal Related?"

This episode starts with sneezing. Naturally. "I expect nothing less  from you lot ..." 

 #JellyfishDontSneeze which somehow becomes important enough to deserve its own hashtag.

Then one of our listeners from Canada asked us: “What is your biggest hot take on anything equine or animal related?”

Which immediately exposed the fact that Barbara didn’t actually know what a “hot take” was.  Or for us Irish/UK folks… “an unpopular opinion“.

So Jen had to explain it to Barbara... And from there… honestly, things escalated.

We got into:

•  why travelling horses alone in single trailers might be far worse than we admit 
•  why cribbing collars should probably be set on fire 
•  why “moving the feet” is often punishment dressed up as training 
•  why emotional regulation cannot be created through pressure and movement 
•  why allostatic load is massively oversimplified in horse training 
•  why behaviour is diagnostic information, not inconvenience 
•  why cutting things out of bodies rarely “fixes” the actual problem 
•  why separating the brain from the body makes absolutely no sense 
•  why confidence and competence are very, very different things 

Also: Barbara says Beyoncé isn’t very good.   #YouAreCanceled

This episode goes everywhere, horse welfare, behaviour, medicine, Beyoncé, training culture, critical thinking, a dead rabbit (see bonus Ep.) and the very human habit of accepting the first answer we’re given because it sounds confident.

Some of these opinions might annoy people. Good. Sure why not. 
The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. 

Got a question you are burning to asking us, nothing is off limitis, or do you have a behaviour issues you’re trying to figure out? Send us a voice note. Your voice, your question, your community is here.

Real cases. Real answers. All madness (guaranteed, the madness bit anyway).

Voice note your questions on WhatsApp to +353 85 143 8688 to have your questions answered on the Podcast.

Meet Your Hosts

Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie

📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688

 Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk

📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I'm just gonna sit in silence then.

SPEAKER_01 0:02

No, sorry, I just I just hiccupped. I like, I like just literally we've been on the phone for we we've been on the phone for 45 minutes, and I'm not hiccuped or anything, and then the second we did those two, I just had like a really awkward like hiccupy moment and I was just like, oh god, hold it in. Um did the clap did suit a d clap did some kind of being a few. Now my headphones just fell out. Why is everything falling apart? Everything dramatic is happening.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

Yeah, sounds a bit right.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

There we go, there we go. It's the curse of recording.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

I'm just waiting for the day that you sneeze, and then we get seven sneezes in a row, and I have to try and cut it.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

No, it happened this morning and it was horrific. I actually think I hit over ten to the point where it actually hurts. No, but it actually starts to hurt, and then I'll start tearing up, and then it can actually get so much that like hurts in my rib cage. I'm sneezing that much and that hard, and I can't breathe, and it's it's it's dramatic.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

I've never it's it's quite impressive to witness. Um, yeah, hopefully that won't happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

And do you know it's probably like some medical diagnosis out there?

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Yeah, somebody will be like, actually, Jen, you've got this really rare condition that means your nose is gonna fall off.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

It's actually a thing. Um, so yeah, if anyone randomly knows the answer, please. Um all I can say is it's hereditary as well because my brother's the same. I mean, we get it from our dad, and my mum's got like asthma, so yeah. Some some kind of genetic there's something there on it. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Um yeah, welcome to the podcast. It's about sneezing today, um, or hiccups. Um, what else can we talk about? Hiccups sneezing. David sneeze is terrifying. Does Donald do like a really terrifying man sneeze? David does, the cats run out of the room, it freaks everybody out, it's huge, like blows the lid off the place.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Donald very rarely sneezes. You take it all for everybody. Like rarely. Now you've now you've all for him. Now that you've said that, um, do you know what is a shame? Pippitt and my parents, Jack Rosso, when she sneezes, if she has a sneezing fit because she's so short, her nose hits the ground, and then she'll sneeze again, and then she'll and then she'll sneeze because her nose hit the ground, and then she'll sneeze because her her head hits the ground again. Um and it's a door, but it's such a shame. See, I sneeze And then she'll hit this like cycle.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

I never got this right. So sneezing is on the um, you know, fear, stress, and anxiety, or like, you know, fast scale or early signals or calming signals for dogs. I I can't understand the mechanism for that because I do see it like, you know, if something happens that's loud or big or you know, something for Izzy, we'll get like a couple of sneezes in a row. And you and I can I can see it and I can see the antecedents that are there, um, you know, for the behaviour, but and I know I could probably just like Google it or look it up, but like I would love to know what the mechanism is that Yeah, I have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

I don't know either. I have no idea how it serves the body at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Is it just because like sneezing is obviously like, you know, you know, it's an it's a you know, an immune type base behaviour. Like, you know, it's like so we don't do you know what I mean? Is it connected from that perspective?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

So you don't breathe in particles, so you're clearing out your nasal like you know Oh, I have no idea, but it's like so if I get my eyebrows done, I'll have a sneezing fit. 100%. There's like literally there's like some sort of connection there. Yeah, that I can understand. Yeah, walking into looking at sunlight, or like walking from a dark space to a light space too quickly, that'll make me sneeze.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Because the eyebrows and and light, right? I could see that as like, you know, but the the the the nerve endings, you know what I mean? Like there's a there's a your sensory what you know, all of that is kind of like connected and up there. I say, like, totally. Like David will laugh at me because if I clean my ears out with cotton, like bud, I will start coughing. And he's like, How are you wired? Like, and I'm just like, I don't know, but it always sends me into a coughing fit. Um, but like that I can kind of understand, but I wonder because like do we sneeze as a calming signal? Like, you know, like is there something in that? I know we yawn, like, because it's like you know, I just want to calm this down. I'm yawning, like everything's okay, babe.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Um like I could see sneezing as being like a disruptor, yeah. Like imagine there was a conflict and there was like a sneeze, it's a really random, weird, like non-aggressive, non-confrontational. I could see it being a disruptor, but also just how on earth did that evolve and like become a a thing within a species.

SPEAKER_02 4:37

Yeah, well, Tim Bergen's four questions. So, what's the function of the sneeze is to clear out the nasal pastures, like from the you know, from the basics, right? So you know there's a line of defense there, right? So you're not breathing particles that might damage your lungs, so there's a survival aspect to it. Yeah, and that all makes sense, yeah. 100%. So then, you know, then you've got social groups, but not all social groups will sneeze in certain types, but it's like I know it sounds stupid, but like horses don't sneeze, but they will blow out through their nasal. Like, you know what I mean? Like they, you know, the big word, like I'm not gonna do it, but you know what I mean? So they don't have now I'm like the horses sneak up.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

You know, they yeah, they they don't they obviously they don't sneeze like shoo, but do they do they do definitely snort and clear out 100%.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

But it's a more conscious, like it's not sneezes, you you know. I mean, if anybody can sneeze on cue fair play, like you know, um I'd say there's some talented people out there.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Is it conscious? Because like you definitely see horses like rubbing their noses, snorty, what you might call a snorty sneeze, and then rubbing their nose because maybe they've like sniffed something, then maybe a phlegm response. Yeah, is that all conscious?

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Well, because or is that their evolutionary pathways to have nasal drainage head down so it clears their nasal passages naturally? Do they not need you know, do they not need the sneeze then from an immunosupp?

SPEAKER_01 6:00

I mean, this was just so not the plan for this podcast. But welcome to how our brains and now and now I'm just like, can all animals are there any animals that don't now? I'm genuinely thinking, do snakes sneeze?

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Snake sneeze. The thing is, welcome to our inner workings. The reason we do this podcast in the first place is because like me and Jen have known each other for years and send each other like voice notes, asking these questions, not knowing the answers, and just picking each other's brains. So this is just a window into our world, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Do dolphins sneeze? Do dolphins and whales sneeze?

SPEAKER_02 6:33

At their blowhole? What's that gonna look like? I would it's just like air bubbles, you know.

unknown 6:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

But like the the function, the evolution, you know, as they see. But this is why I find it interesting that like w you know, I'm like, what's the etymology of like is etymology the right word there? It's probably not, you know, so we you know, because cats will sneeze too, right? And they are dogs, so dogs and cats will both sneeze, and so do we, and we recognize, you know, that it is part of the calming signal, early stress warning, you know, for for dogs, and we know that. So then I'm like, is it is there a co-evolution aspect to it be like you know, like a social, a socially learned behavior between dogs and cats that we domesticated and ourselves. Like, do you do you get what I mean? Or like you know, is is it then like also a calming signal in humans? Like, and is it a calming signal because there's like an immune suppression sort of thing is like you know, it's like, oh please don't come at me, I'm not feeling great, you know. Did it did it evolve from that kind of aspect?

SPEAKER_01 7:48

I honestly don't know because I cannot think of a single stressful situation where I've sneezed. But like It's usually when I'm sat around doing nothing. But is it like that's doesn't that's not that's not to say it hasn't happened, it just means I can't really.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

But is is is it like you know in an internal stress state? Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Like, you know, like a come down state rather than in the stress, more of regulatory on the other side.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah, exactly. Is there sort of an allostasis like aspect to it, you know? Um like as say either like you know, like gastrointestinal or sleep, like like is there something else like from like the homeostasis, allostasis within an internal state within the body that your body's like, right? I'm running low right now, I can't afford to have anything happen, so I'm gonna sneeze more. So then it's like more of a stress response because of that. These are all questions I don't know the answer to, and I'm I'm pitching them to you. I'm so sorry, Jen.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

We're gonna go and look into sneezing after this. Oh no, I already am, and apparently horses do sneeze. This is according to Chat GPT though. So apparently all these animals have well-documented sneeze reflexes. Dogs, cats, horses, rabbits, mice, rats, primates, cows, sheep, goats, elephants, which is I'm just gonna be. Oh my god, an elephant sneeze would be foxes, deer, guinea pigs, and ferrets. Sometimes dogs use play sneezes during social play and non-aggression. Please bear in mind everyone, this is chat GBT. Yeah, yeah. Um whatever we're gonna do. Animals, birds don't sneeze.

SPEAKER_04 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Oh wait, they are birds can expel air forcefully, but it's not a true mammalian style sneeze. So this is a mammalian character. Appartly snakes, yeah, apparently snakes can form a sneeze-like expulsion. To be fair, I've I have owned snakes, they do a kind of a hoff. Um it's very cute if you're into snakes. Oh my god, this this is so chatchi bt. Animals, unlikely or extremely unlikely to sneeze. Are you ready for this? First jellyfish.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

I wasn't expecting it, and I think I was gonna peek like a motherfucker because I did not. I laughed right into the mic. I'm so sorry, future barber, you're gonna have to edit that.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Oh, that's brilliant. Oh my god, jellyfish. Oh, yeah, they don't need to be.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Okay, so like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Right. This is when I sometimes wonder if Chat GBT has like dark humor.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Yeah, no. Well, it was trained on the internet, and the internet has dark humor, so oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

True. Oh, that was brilliant. That was and then one of the other ones that said was um sponges.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

As in like sea sponges, looking at the bigger one.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Yeah, after the jellyfish, and then one's gonna beat the jellyfish and not sneezing. No, that was so that's brilliant. What a tangent that we did not this was not planned for not planned at all. So, welcome to the podcast about sneezing. Um, we'll actually, I suppose we're gonna start again. This is anything more than about sneezing that you want to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

I think I'm literally done on the sneezing topic. Yeah, I'm good. I'm so good. Nothing's peaking that at all.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yeah, so look, thank you guys so much for for all the messages that you've sent in. We've we've had loads and we're just totally overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

I've been so impressed with how many we've had.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

You've been impressed because you're like people actually sat down and did stuff on their phone. Like that was you were like, oh my god, people actually Oh my god, people actually didn't actually engaged, and like, and some of them, I say, you know, some of them are hilarious, some of them are like amazing questions. Like, um, there are no massive particular order except for this first one because Jen's very happy that we got this one in because you've been wanting to do this topic for a while now. Um, and I have begrudgingly had to let it happen um because we got the question in. So note Jen's glee, gleeful silence. I can hear you smiling and you know, on the other end here. I'm saying nothing. All right, okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Well you do need to say something. The podcast only works if you do say things. You realize that's part of the arrangement here.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

No, genuinely, for a second there, I was a little bit confused because I was like, are we talking about the question, the most recent one, or some of my friends completely took the mick with the whole question-based thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

And I was like, huh? They did. We can play those ones if you want, but that was really just for my own entertainment. Um and I think you all had fun with that. We did, we did. It was mainly just like let's bully Jen as much as we can. You know, it's just too easy to wind you up. So that was yeah, it was good fun. Um, you know, let us know if you want to hear those ones. I'll I'll by all means stick them on, but for for the sake of this.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

See, at this point, I'm just resigned. I'm just resigned. I'm just like, it was it was my fault for introducing you to each other, knowing that you're both this personality type, and just knowing the thing is like I sacrificed myself knowing that you guys would have so much fun, like at the wind up, knowing that completely aware, completely aware. Um, I'm just resigned to the bullying now. Yeah, it's so altruistic. I am yep, yeah, self-sacrifice there for your happiness. Yeah, so and the listeners have no idea what's up. So whatsoever, yeah. Yeah, it's a great podcast. First questions then. I have been for for a little bit of context for the listeners. I've been trying to get Barbara to do unpopular opinions for weeks now, possibly months, but unfortunately the the barrier we cut keep coming on to is that Barbara has no idea and cannot grasp the concept an unpopular opinion is. Yeah, we'll get into that.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Um so we got a question in um which I will play for you guys now. So, like to translate, from what I understand, hot take is also an unpopular opinion. Like they translate, yes? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Okay. Yeah, but I can't remember what it is. I need to listen to it as well.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Yeah, we'll stick it on here now. Um, and this is from Canadia. That was Canada for anyone in the who can't understand bar. I think it's more fun to say Canadia. Uh it sounds fancier.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

But it sounds like somebody's name, but their name is not Canadia, it's from the the country of Canada. So here is actually our first one. So it's from a lister in Canada, and so it's called a hot take, and we're we're basically going through translation, the hot take and unpopular opinion. Basically the same thing. So we are gonna play that now.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Okay, I would love to stir the pot a little bit. What is your biggest hot take when it comes to anything equine or even animal related? I would just love to know. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

So thank you so much for your question. It's I I love the old international listener, it's brilliant. So, first of all, Jen, for the for the sake of the listener, not for Barbara, what does it mean for a hot take?

unknown 14:50

What is that?

SPEAKER_01 14:51

A hot take, I'm assuming, is very similar, if not the same, to an unpopular opinion. Um and it's basically like something that is not well accepted, or maybe something that we do that we shouldn't be doing. An unpopular opinion is you know going against the grain. It's basically what we do every single day of our working careers, but in a statement.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

But my problem, and you know what I'm gonna say here, is they're not opinions. Do you know what I mean? It's like like Galileo is like, you know, like w the you know, we circle the sun, you know, we orbit the sun. Right? That wasn't an opinion that was fact, you were right, you know, but it was very unpopular. You know, so that that's the bit that I struggle with because I'm like Okay, I'm gonna give you an example.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

I'm gonna give you an example, right? Right. Ryan Gosling was recently on BBC One Radio One. Yeah. Okay. And they do this, come give us your unpopular opinion, and there's a whole like jingle, and it's fun. And Ryan Gosling's was that the fox is underappreciated in London.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

Yeah, he's right.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

But it's an unpopular opinion because a lot of people don't like foxes. And he was going on about how cool they are and how ghetto they are and how well they've adapted, and all this jazz. So you would agree with him, but a lot of people don't like foxes. So that's an unpopular opinion.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Yeah. But then why yeah. But but why don't they like it? I mean, like that's put taking up a lot of band, like you know, is it like so? Is that a hot take then as well?

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Like I think so. I think so. So I'm I'm gonna give you my horsey one. Okay. And I give you I did give you a warm-up for this one before. You did, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

I've already got my rebuttal, but you didn't.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Okay, okay. So my unpopular opinion or hot take is that one horse horse trailers should not exist. Why? Because I don't I don't have any data, but in my experience, horses don't enjoy travelling in them. So many loading issues cases involve a one-horse trailer, horses going over bars, flipping out, having stressful travel journeys. I see a lot of that happening in one-horse trailers. And I don't actually think, I'm assuming it's a slightly narrower base, like the axle, the base, I don't have the technical mechanical words, but it's white, it's narrower. So I would imagine the ride, like the the um the actual sensation for the horse is nowhere near as pleasant. I would imagine it rolls and probably is wobbly, less stable, then comparing to double horse trailer, and then you know, three and a half tonne. Because even a three and a half tonne compared to a seven and a half tonne, seven and a half tonne, you can also go herringbone. And we do have data and research with regards to like horse preferences and um you know the w whether they go herringbone or forwards or backwards. And there was a paper out there, and I don't have it, that looked at like the amount of calories and workload that a horse does over a seven-hour journey was equivalent to X amount of exercise. So we know travelling is hard work, so like the travel comfort is important.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

But then if they're in a two-horse trailer, they may be travelling alone and they're in a tight space. But you can take the petition out and make it bigger. You can't do that. You can't make I know that the I for Williams. So you can't make a single horse bigger. But the thing but the single so I I have a single trailer, um, and I think yours is big. Yeah, that's why I got it, because it was big, so this they can stand on a diagonal. And I've used it to train other clients' horses enough, particularly for that reason, because it is bigger and they can stand on a diagonal, they have more space, they have way more headroom, and I also got it because of the suspension in it is better than the i4. Like, so I was looking at the suspension lock and stuff and the axles, so it doesn't actually bounce and move as much.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Um yours isn't actually a single, yours is a horse mare and fold.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

No, no, no, it's a single, yeah, yeah. No, there's a yeah, it's a different one. There's a different one called the mare and fold, but no, mine is mine is uh single, not uh mare and fold. There's two different type uh that's the way they advertise it. There they advertise it as a single.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Um but I'm pretty sure if you measured your because your what's yours Cheval? Yeah. I'm pretty sure if you measured your Cheval.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

We could be getting some prime, like, you know, shouting out free advertising there. I did say I for a few times actually, so you know. Yeah, you did, you did, you did, you did.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Um I'm but I'm pretty sure dimension-wise yours would be wider than the I for Williams single horse trailer. So is it a Because the single horse trailer you can't they can't stand diagonal?

SPEAKER_02 19:33

So for me, then it's like, okay, well, you know, is it correlation versus causation? Is it the space that they have available to them in the trailer? Is it the fact that they're travelling alone? Is it, you know, what side of the trailer they're standing on if you haven't taken down the partition? Do you have the ability to take down the partition? Um, are they stressed travelling alone? Is there a hind limb issue? Is it the physicality of being, you know, transported for long periods of time um and how much energy? So it's like, is it the trailer or are there other factors?

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Uh yeah, and I've I've had many cases where it's there's many c there's many factors, but you change the trailer and the and things resolve because they can stand differently.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Still not sure I understand the unpopular opinion of the hot take, but because you know, I'm like, yeah, you know, you said you've made excuse me, you made a very reasoned and logical argument that I can understand. Is it unpo you know, is that a hot take? Is it unpopular?

SPEAKER_01 20:34

I'd say it is unpopular because they exist. They're a manufactured product. Yeah, but so are there's obviously like a market for them.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Okay, right. So if we're going on that one, I fucking hate crib collars. They should be burnt. Like they should be set on fire, you know. Um, like they're the most uh horrific, you know. Do you know like in um I don't know if you've ever done like the you know the ghost tours in Edinburgh and stuff where like they show you the thumb screws and all the rest of it. It's like you know, those things where they stretched people out. The thumb screws are probably the worst. It reminds me of that. They should be set on fire and never manufactured again. Same with shot colours for dogs.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

It's the same like and weave bars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. Anything anything that it just operates to punish or prevent a behaviour is just just so unethical because you're not making their lives any better. It's just preventing them from doing something. No, you don't there's no no there's no active work there. It's just preventing it. And also, I know many, many weaving horses that just step back and weave in the stable. But because it's out of sight, out of mind, so like people don't see it, but they'll do it. It's like, oh, they're not doing it anymore. Or they do it in the field. And I've seen uh horses can crib on themselves as well if you remove all the posts and everything, it's like they'll fill farm effectively, you know.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

But then but then is the thing is so this the bit that like so I don't feel like that's a hot take, right? You know, I know there's Still being sold and all the rest of it. But I feel like most people would recognise that you know we don't want to use it.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

I feel like this is turning into the weirdest uh podcast we've ever had. Sneezing and then me, me now having to explain like human behavior and like marketing and like like Debara, like is there, they're marketed, they're bought, there's a need. Um, are buying them? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

But I understand that, right? So there's a pain point for like you know, like you're selling a product that you know, so like the single boxes or you know, the crib colours or the shock colours and all the rest of it. Somebody has a pain point and it solves a problem for them and it's marketed, and that's all psychology. And I get that, yes, I understand that, yeah. But I still feel like even if we're buying them, we still we we justify in our own minds of like this is the best that I can do in that situation, you know, because I, you know, things are really difficult, or you know, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Hold on, you've just given me you've just given me a thought there. Okay, new unpopular opinion. Sometimes doing the best you can do is still not a good idea. Sometimes it's better to just not do. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Kind of.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

So imagine so let let's take the crib and collar, like you might not have access or knowledge or even know that behaviors exist or anything like that exists. Yeah. And you think the best thing you're doing is putting a crib collar on it, because you think that's the best thing to do. Yeah. But actually, not putting a crib on and doing nothing would be better than putting a crib collar on.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Yeah. Oh, it's f oh. I I think I have an unpopular opinion there, for you just, you know, or like a hot take, um, you know, I say from that, is like you can't you like nothing can be healed by cutting it. I see this all the time. Like, you know, horses have like gone a little bit footy after a trim, and someone gets a farrier in to trim them again. And I'm like, dunno. Like you're you're t don't you cannot, you know, like just because you said like you're better off, just do nothing. Like, and and uh it's a really hard when I say it to clients to like you know, get a trim and the horse has gone footy and they've gone a bit lame after the trim, and then they get the farrier in the next week to trim again. You you can't heal something by putting it again. You gotta let that heal and grow back. And that's very hard for people because they want to do something, they want to actively do something. And is that not does that a hot take? I feel like I feel like you know I think you I think you got it. I think I got there. I got there eventually. I think you got I got yeah, you know, so I'm just like let it grow, leave them alone. And I say to my clients all the time, you know, um, because because you actively want to do something, and and you feel like you're not caring for I don't understand why you feel like you're not caring for your horse by you know not trimming them. You feel like you know, because you know, like but I'm just like leave them alone, like and they'll come home, like you know you need to do something. You need to do something.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

There's a control aspect to that. It's like I I need to feel like I've I've been useful, I've put energy into this, and I've orchestrated a result, and now I'm a better person, a better owner because I physically did something. It's their feat, just let them sort themselves out.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

And you can come back to it when it's when it's hard. It's very hard to do, you know. Um and that's definitely an unpopular opinion or hot take. And I know it is because most people don't agree with me.

SPEAKER_04 25:34

That's a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

And it's also it's a little bit like expecting inverted, commas emotional regulation by making the feet move.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Oh, that's just nonsense.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

But again, that's inaccurate.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Like it doesn't I know it's inaccurate, yeah. You know, it's like let's take this flight animal thank you for your question, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

I'll make it move more.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Yeah, and make it move more. And it's like you you do understand No, they don't understand. Um, you know. No, that's that's that's the whole point. Yeah, I know. I know. But again, like is you know, I suppose like again, I don't feel like that's necessarily a hot take either, because I suppose and then it is an unpopular opinion. I but the thing is it's because I feel like uh and this is wh where my problem with the hot take and unpopular opinion comes from. I know we're kind of jumping back and forth between the two terms, but um so because if you look at the research in all the stuff that we do and like, you know, animal behaviour and welfare and and like you know, and how horses learn and you know, equitation science, you go back to like 2008 and 2010, so like you know, 15-17 years ago, and the research already has answered this. So I'm like, but it's like 15-17 years old, like it's been around for a while. So that's why I struggle.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Can you remind us if you've got the if you can remember what would what were the outcomes of of the research? Oh, well, there's been loads of them. Like, you know, we we've talked I know, but is it any of them coming to mind?

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Um I mean like again, you know, if we stick with the like moving the feet aspect, you know, we have like we go back even further and we understand about negative reinforcement. Um, you know, and also like what we're trying to actually achieve with that and and you know, constantly putting pressure on. We understand about flooding and learned helplessness. Like that's that's well and truly like established even longer than the time frame that I've you know said, like it's like the 1950s. Like we know that unrelenting negative reinforcement becomes positive punishment, you know. So you you're you you end up in a situation where you know, and to remind people, like you know, positive punishment stops the behavior from happening, you know, and you can very easily trip into that from negative reinforcement. So you think you're applying negative reinforcement by constantly moving the feet and did quotations there, you know, um the horse has already moved their feet, but you haven't removed the pressure because you're constantly trying to make even though they performed the behavior, so they don't now it's not no now it's not negative reinforcement, now it's tripped into positive re like positive punishment. So now you're punishing them for performing the behavior to move their feet, like and the horse is utterly confused because it's like which one is it? It was negative reinforcement or I thought it was a minute ago, but then I kept doing it, and now I'm being punished, you know, and we think we're doing something, and then we take off the pressure pressure at some random time, and the horse is utterly confused and and is is sensitized and is in a higher, like you know, is in a much more sensitized state, so they're gonna be more reactive to different things, which is totally counterintuitive to like what we want to achieve when we're training horses, like and we've known that for a very long time. So then I'm like, I I oh I'm always bamboozled when I see these training programs come up, you know, be you know, or people talk about them in in such confident ways that like you know, and again, I I I tend not to scroll social media and I can't look at any of these things anymore for a very long time for exactly that because I will just start screaming into the internet. Um, you know, and I when I look at it.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

I think one of the the one things that it just irks me the most is that the term emotional regulation has been used incorrectly for so long that nobody's really talking about the true meaning of it.

unknown 29:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

So emotional regulation, the the ability to regulate emotion, so that's moving from if you've got your homeostasis CAM in the middle, experiencing hyper arousal and then coming back to your CAM or experiencing high pole arousal. So that's that low, slow, frozen, you know, um freeze response, and but being able to come back to CAM. It's not jumping between hyper and high pole and hyper and high pole, because that's essentially what these training systems are doing. They're putting the horse into a state of hyper arousal, movement, fast movement, run, flee, flight, straight down into now do not move into a forced freeze. That's not emotional regulation, that's just moving from one end of the scale to the other. It's also forced. So there is absolutely no learning of so-called emotional regulation because that's an internal thing. And teaching a horse to stand in space at the end of a rope on their own, essentially in isolation, is definitely not teaching them anything other than their best option is to stand away from the human. That's that's all you're getting there. Oh, 100%. But but this And it just it does my head.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

But this is what I mean. Like it comes into positive punishment because they're like, you know, they're like, oh, you know, the pressure will be relieved and I'll stop I'm being punished for moving my feet, so I'll stand still. And we seem to think that we've taught something. Like, you know, this came up a little while ago in these particular kind of groups as well. Like, and they're you know, now that you've gotten us started on this one, um, you know, I saw this thing for like people were talking about allostatic load, like, and I was like, what is this? You know, and I did, I I This is just verbal diarrhea, it really is, and it just shows the lack of understanding of like what like allostasis and homeostasis are. Now I did write up um post back, you know, ages ago about it, um, because it was driving me nuts that people were just not understanding what it actually, you know, meant. Like, you know, we talk about stress a lot of the time, you know, in horses, like, you know, and also dogs, but like, you know, and you kind of mentioned it there, like, there's also de-stress. Like, you know, stress is not necessarily like a bad thing, and then you talked about like emotional regulation as well. And I'm like, I don't know. I mean, can you regulate your emotions consciously? Like, you know, we like even humans even struggle with the other.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Well, with the support of like, yeah, you have to go, you have to either have really good social bonds and really good um mentorship through like you know, your parents, your friends, and chances are you're gonna meet people who are not emotionally well regulated and you learn patterns from them. So, unless you consciously go to like therapy and reflect and learn about emotional regulation, it is such a deep intrinsic thing that running a horse in a circle and making them stand still is there's no way. I mean, if bar if if if if barber could just sort out all my emotional regulation by chasing me with a stick and then making me stand in the in the courtyard, great. I mean, I'll pay her money for it.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

By just having a conversation with friends because when we try and look at our internal emotional state, how many people have sat there and gone, do you know, I feel really sad today, or I feel a bit like run down, or I feel a bit low? Like we've sent each other those messages where I'm like, I'm just a bit like ugh today, and I don't know what's wrong with me. And you'll be like, Yeah, I'm sorry, is there anything I can do to help? And I'm like, Oh, well, I can't figure out what's wrong with me, or do you know what I mean? Maybe I'm just a bit tired. Like, even having those conversations when we can talk about them, like the the the and I'm gonna say this the arrogance, the arrogance of people who think that they can somehow create quote unquote emotional regulation by effectively just using negative reinforcement and positive punishment with a horse is you know is just so arrogant. Astounding. It is it is. Yeah. Like, do you know what I mean? It really is. I wouldn't even like you know, like, you know, my husband or my bestest friends, I wouldn't even think that I could do that by sitting down as a qualified behaviorist with a deeper understanding of you know, complex human and psychological things, to be able to support them to to regulate themselves emotionally. Like, do you know? Yeah, so anyway, that's that's that one. I still feel like that it's hard to like like am I doing hot takes yet, Jen? Like you I feel like that was a hot.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

I feel like that was a really good one. Yeah, no, I feel like that was a good one.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Well, the allostasis is another one too. Like, so like so homeostasis, like you know, for for people who don't understand, is like this term where it's like it's your body responding to stress, right? You know, so it's a fixed point, okay. So, you know, if you're too warm, you will sweat to cool you down. Like, and I'm gonna talk about this from a physiological perspective. If you know you're too cold, you're gonna shiver, and you know, you're gonna get goosebumps and raise the hair to take more heat in, right? It's a set point that your body needs to maintain, okay? Like it that's that's basically where it is. However, allostasis is your body's ability to maintain stability through change. There's a difference, right? So, like if I walk into a like you know, if if it gets suddenly cold and I get cold, my body's gonna go, okay, I need to heat up. It actually changes, but allostasis is going like is your ability to go, it's gotten a bit cold now, but I still I am maintaining this state. I I can still do things, you know. So it you know, it prepares for it. It's kind of like how again sticking with temperature, you know, or I'm trying to think, I suppose we were talking about stress, so it would make more, you know, make more sense to talk about stress rather than temperature. Although I suppose temperature creates stress in the body physiologically. Um so you know, like allostasis sort of like it prepares for those sort of stressful situations. So it can increase, say like cortisol, you know, or an increase in cortisol isn't just a reaction to the stress, like it can also be a proactive adjustment so that the animal can anticipate it.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

So, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna take a I'm gonna take a diet with this and see if I can Yeah, yeah, go for it. So because I sometimes I struggle to like um explain this. So yeah. I'm gonna say homeostasis is the body's attempt to come back to normal midline. It's just sole focus is like fixed point. 37 degrees, 37.5 degrees, respiration, 12 breaths per minute, whatever your resting heart rate of whatever is 65. I don't know. Like that's its sole desire is to do just bring us back to the median, bring us back to middle to survival mode. That's homeostasis. But alleostasis is looking and actioning change in movement. So we need to physically move here to survive and cope, we need to make a change, I need to get a move, I need to release a different hormone, I need to produce a different behavior, I need to physically change something to survive and cope. Does that they are very close? I don't feel like Yeah, like I'm trying to I'm trying to simplify it, but they do there is crossover.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

Yeah, there is crossover, of course there is, because no, none of them in biology for like, you know, is an isolation. Oh, we were. Oh god, we were having that conversation. And I literally well ultimately allostasis is actually more nuanced, more sophisticated, and more complicated than homeostasis. So when I saw it kicking around all over social media where people were just going, Oh, you know, allostatic load and this horse, you know, we need to train their allostasis. I was like, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

What what but there's nothing to train?

SPEAKER_02 37:30

So I literally like I, you know, so I it's somewhere there on my socials. Feel free to to scroll or as you say, have a Google of it yourself because it is way more sophisticated and nuanced, like, and we could probably just do a whole podcast on it. But what you know, to that point, and again, I suppose another hot take, you know, because we were talking about this the other day, like both with alleostasis and homeostasis, like you know, people separate, we separate them out as terms so that we can understand them and talk about them, but they are all interactive, like, and we do this all the time when we're assessing like horses and dogs, and you know, someone goes like, Oh, you know, the brain is doing this, or oh, they've got a liver, you know, thing over here, oh, there's like a gate issue here, and we keep isolating all of these individual systems and forgetting that they're all part of the body, you know, and it happens all the time, like where people go like you know, as say, like, oh, you know, they're just they're intolerant to this or they've got gastroissues, you know, and not looking at the other things, maybe this allergies there, you know, as they like maybe there's other underlying muscular celestial systems because all of those organs are connected and there's a cascade effect. You know, if one of those organs isn't functioning, you can have a cascade into other organs that are going to be compromised because it's it's a system.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Go on. Yeah, you just reminded me there was that webinar I I was on about um it's a it's a bit of research, it's not published yet, um, but there's a group looking at like scoring fecal samples on horses, so looking at like dung quality, actually seeing, you know, literally, you know, going into table, looking at the consistency of the dung and stuff like this, and they're they're creating a scorecard which will have verified links to certain health indicators. So it's something that owners and vets will be able to walk into a stable and look at the consistency of dung and go, look at the scorecard and go, that's grade four, like a bit like ulcers and stuff, or I think they're gonna have like a colour wheel and stuff like I say, it's in development. Yeah. Anyway, in that webinar there were other discussions um about some some link, and this was a discussion point, so I don't have a reference for you, um, but looking at highing gut issues um and camping under this is horses and negative and negative palmer angles in the coffin in the coffin bone of the distal phalanx. Um because obviously the horse, if the horse is camping under from gut disturbances in a camped posture, they're then changing the loading through their hooves and then negative palmer angles, and I was like, Oh, I can think of a few horses straight off as soon as you say it, like 100% all like connect because they're all connected.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Here's another hot take, right? And again, now you've got me started because I say it all the time. Behavior's medicine, like we can do that one, yeah, like behavior is medicine. Yeah, behavior is a diagnostic tool, behavior is a differential that is absolutely unconsidered, like within like other medical professionals, and only recently, because before we had all the diagnostic equipment, before we were reliant on MRIs and x-rays and blood results and all the other fancy equipment that we had, both vets and doctors had to ask the patients what was happening or observe them, and they were better at doing it. And what's happened is behavior has taken over that niche and it's become is it's become underrun, like it is not considered an important. Oh, it's just behaviour. Well, we love that phrase, don't we, Jen? You know, hot take. Behavior is more important. Behavior is the most important thing to observe in any like it's the first thing you see in any underlying medical issue, is the first thing that's actually like it's the you know, it's all symptoms, like it's all symptoms. That is what behavior is.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

I see it, I think I feel like I see it on a daily basis. Behavior is a symptom of something else. It's not it's not on its own, it's not just happening because they feel like it. They feel like it because something is triggering that emotion or triggering that desire, it's happening for a reason.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

There's an internal or there's an in internal or external state or intrinsic, extrinsic state that is that is performed that so it can either be internal. Motivating the behavior, yeah, emotional, and your brain is part of your body and it's still medicine. Do you know what I mean? And the thing is as well, unless it's actually unless you're actually in internal medicine, you know, you are working through the same differentials that we're working through, you know, and but behavior's dismissed all the time, like as a kind of like a pro science and all the rest of it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Just think back to the days of like women's hysteria. Back when that was an actual diagnostics. Oh, it's just hysteria. Just hysteria.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Yeah, just hysteria. But um, yeah, you're just hysterical.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Like, and and this is it, it's just like I think this I think this episode should just be called a whole hot hot takes and tangents. Hot takes and tangents should be the title Hot Takes and Tangents.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

But every the thing is, like, I again I you know, having I think you guys should see like our messages about this for the last like month, because every time Jen's brought up like unpopular opinion, like David has been like, your unpopular opinion is unpopular opinions are stupid. Like, and I'm like, Yes, but now you've gotten you've gotten the anger barber out, and now I'm going through it, and I'm like, oh that annoys me, that annoys me. Is that right? Am I doing it right there?

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Yeah. I mean, it's only taken us about two months. I have essentially been shaping Barbara's behavior outside of the podcast, and and I and it's working. I just had, oh my god, I had to find the right motivator. Oh yeah, oh perfect.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

There you go. Um, well, the other one is so like we're as behaviorists, like, you know, there's like there's things that like we're we're like we we can't diagnose like legally. Like, you know, it's a non-protective term, even though I'm like, well, as far as I'm concerned, I can diagnose the behavior. That animal is stressed. That animal, like, you know what I mean? Like the essay, like, we should be able to diagnose behavioral patterns because we're behaviorists, right? But like, even in psychiatry, you have like psych uh you know, counselors and psychotherapists and stuff, but a psychologist is still a trained doctor, and like you know, when it comes that they're still the ones who uh can actually diagnose things. And even if you go to a psychotherapist and they think potentially like You could be neurodivergent if there's something else going on, they are not legally able to diagnose, even though it's a behavioral pattern. I the it blows my mind even to kind of like to this day because like the one thing, and this is as they like my hot take, is that as behaviorists, we should be able to diagnose things like lameness and gay because we because locomotion is behavior, right? It's a normal natural behavior, and we are trained to observe like different gaits and how animals move and how they carry themselves, and we're very, very good at it. We're very good at seeing what normal is like, so we are very good at seeing what abnormal is like, and I would argue better than than most individuals. Um like all the behaviour that's a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

I think it's because also we're trained about the the conflict behaviours and when you do have lameness, you will have conflict behaviours in other parts. Yeah. So it can be a grimace, it can be a tail, it can be even like the ridden horse pain ethogram. I was just about to say like there's so many boxes you can tick with eyes and ears, and yeah, and the discomfort like there's so many things. So it's not it's not just the physiological of head bob, pelvis tilt. Yeah. Like there's a whole horse to look at, and this spills into the conversation that Barbara and I are having, what, like last week or something, on the systems are all connected. And I can't remember the example I gave you. Why were uh why were we talking about it?

SPEAKER_02 45:29

Uh God knows. Probably, you know, comfort.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

It was like pain and sleep and behaviour. Yeah, it was like every yeah, and we're talking I think we're talking about like gut and brain and health and body. It's like, yeah, it's all connected because you know, let's just say you have knee pain as a human. Let's just say you have knee pain, and then you're coping with that increased like cortisol stress, and then you're not sleeping as well, so now you're in sleep debt and you're not having that regulation overnight, and now you're irritable, and then you might be eating in excess, or you're you're um, or you might not be eating the best foods because it's comfort, and now your gut is unhealthy, and like they're all linked, and then if your knee pain is gonna change how you move, and now you're gonna have lower back pain, and then compensatory patterns, and then you might even have a gut disturbance because of and you work your way back, and it's like you've got sleep deprivation, gut issues, lower back pain, all stemming back from your knee pain. But if we were like behaviorists in that, we can see the sleep deprivation, we can see the irritability, we can see the feeding because feeding patterns are actually behavioral. That you know, feeding and eating is a behavior itself.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

This is it, you've got locomot-that's what I mean by like a locomotory behaviors, so like movement. That's why I'm like, you know, that you can see when you know something's not right, the same as like ingestive behaviors, feeding behaviors, foraging behaviors. Also, like, you know, if we go for predators, like, you know, as they say, the predator motor pattern in dogs, like, you know, sniffing, like olfactory, like scent, like as they, you know, recumbency, so like lateral, sternal recumbency, like sleeping behaviors, resting, like all of those things are behavioural patterns, and they all have a physiological, like, you know, like I say, function, as well as like, you know, an enter internal and external state, and you can change things in the environment, you know, or through learning patterns to actually test and measure that behavior, and by doing so it gives you more information. There is actually like you know, a method to it that gives you information. This one, like it is medicine, it's it's behavior's medicine, like 100%. Like, you know, so I say like my hot take I keep saying hot take. Um I kind of like it now that I'm I'm in it.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

I think you quite enjoy these hot takes now.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

No, you've got me started like just get enough rage into me about irritating things. Like, um you know, is that like we should we should be equivalent? Like you know, there's like you know, unfortunately it is like dismissed so much. There's not the same authority.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

Like, you know, you do see that in like you know, comments on social media and people denigrating it and making fun of behavior or making fun of the animals' behavior as well, and you know, and and dismissing Oh, there was one recently about a horse jumping, I was on like what a big like Facebook group about a horse jumping out of a field and the majority of the comments were like put electric tape around its head, put electric tape around its rug, zap it one, raise the height, and I'm just like that's terrifyingly bad advice, yeah, and so risky, and it's just like I mean I stopped scrolling because I was just like this is just depressing. When somebody's gonna ask, why is the horse jumping out? What's the motivation?

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Like, I'm trying, yeah, it's just people but people don't ask why they jump straight as kind of solutions as well.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

I think I think horse owners and and and and dog owners and and like a lot of people are really good at identifying the issue. So, like, oh you know, my horse's head, he's tossing his head, you know, at the end of a hack or the second end of a hack, or you know, yeah, like it's like okay, well keep the thought going. That's great, you've identified it, awesome. Like that's great awareness. Keep going. Keep the thought process going. You've it's happening, and and you've also told me it's happening at near the second half of a hack. How long is the hack? What's the terrain? How fit are they? What's the tack like? How well does everything fit? What what could be adding to this? Why do you think it might be happening? What's the motivation? And like that's the missing bit of the jigsaw puzzle that I just think if more horse owners, dog owners, even people in relationships could just keep the thought process going that extra sentence. Have you ever heard of we'd be a lot better off?

SPEAKER_02 50:07

Have you ever heard of the five whys, Jen?

SPEAKER_01 50:10

It's basically No, but you are amazing at these acronyms.

SPEAKER_02 50:14

I mean there's uh it comes from What was the first one?

SPEAKER_01 50:16

And I know they're all exist, but I always forget what they're actually called. It's like lyrics. It is like lyrics.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Yeah, I remember all the lyrics as well. Yeah. I mean, I don't remember anything else. And we know you don't, right? We know you don't remember the lyrics. Um that's one of the voice notes we got. Um so and just to take the heat off Jen, you know, unpopular opinion, I don't think Beyonce is very good. Um so there I know. Just that was just to take the heat.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

That is that is an unpopular opinion. I'm really proud. You're totally getting this.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

She's overrated, and I don't like any of her music. Um there you go.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

There you go.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

So the five Ys, uh, I am that's good that's what gets me cancelled. It won't be anything else that I've said. It'll be that, won't it?

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Um Yeah, that will actually be it.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

The um The Beehive will be after you.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

The beehive the what? Is that oh, is uh that her friends or something.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Oh no, that's a thing. It's like Taylor Swift fans or Swifties. Okay. So like the Beehive is like Beyoncé, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:21

Okay, yeah. Um, yeah, so the five whys is what Jen was basically explaining there in determining process improvement. Because if you ask why once, and also I challenge you, if you want to find out if someone actually knows what they're talking about, this is a really great way of like figuring out if they're full of uh shit or not. So if you ask why five times, you know, so um, and apologies if you've heard it like on the podcast, but my tummy is grumbling, um, you know, it just went uh again there. I hope I can get it out in post. But um, yeah, so it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Fio was drinking water earlier, and I can only imagine how loud it was.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

Oh, she didn't make another feature, she did make a feature on the last one. Um so like horse jumping out of the fence, right? You know, so the performs that behaviour jumps the fence. You ask why the first time. Why did the horse jump out of the fence? Oh, something seemed to spook it from behind. Okay. Why did the horse spook? Um hadn't been turned out, you know, um since the day before and was a little bit more reactive. Well, why wasn't it turned out? Oh, um, you know, I didn't have any field space. Why didn't you have enough field space? Oh, I didn't manage the fields as well over the winter. Why didn't you manage the fields over the winter? I didn't even think to do it really. Okay. Well, in order to solve the problem for why the horse is jumping out of the fence, let's manage the fields better so we get more turnout, the horse is less reactive, and then we don't jump the fence. See what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 52:50

Like Okay, so you literally it's it's not the five whys, it's like f ask five why. I get you know, I was thinking like what like five why questions. I was like, oh god, that's a lot for me to remember. But it's literally add five whys. Five whys. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

And again, it works really well if if somebody tells you something with such confidence, you know, that irritating confidence equals competence nonsense that a particular gender might do. Um, you know, ask them why five times. Like, you know, ah, you need to teach them who's boss. Why? Why? And then see what they say to that. Why do I need to teach them who's boss? Ah, they'll run over you. Why would they run over me? Oh, I do it all the time. Watch watch them fall apart. Like, you know, whereas if you get somebody who really knows what they're talking about, you can ask. You can answer it because they know the subject matter. I could do it with Jen, right? Um, oh, pick a subject under pressure. Oh no, no, no, but like seriously, because you do it. Um, okay, uh, let's I'll think of something behavior-wise. Um rushing jumps, Jen, like riding, like my horse is rushing jumps. Why is my horse rushing jumps?

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Am I answering or you you're you're seeing the wise?

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so my horse is rushing jumps, and you you're gonna explain to me why my horse might be rushing jumps, and I'm just gonna ask why to dive into it. Um and you can pick on blocks.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

There there could be a negative association with jumping, and it's a fear-based response.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

But why would they but they love jumping? Why would they be afraid of jumping?

SPEAKER_01 54:27

It could be very uncomfortable for them if they're coping with an underlying medical condition. The actual physicality of it could be really difficult and that can be quite scary.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

But why would they be scared of jumping if they like it? Like, you know, somebody might come back to it again.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

So you dive in a bit deeper. If there's a pain associate yeah, if there's a pain association of to being a pre uh prey animal, that's going to be a very strong association if that action is linked to pain or instability, or perhaps as being associated with a painful event, maybe they've had a fall, a rotational, I don't know the history here, but that is a big learning experience. That association is a very negative one, and for an animal that is primed on survival, it's going to pay attention to that.

SPEAKER_02 55:11

And why would they run faster on a fence if they were in pain or had that association?

SPEAKER_01 55:17

Well, it's also a ridden horse, so there's this could be quite a complex moment. It could be a fear-based response going into flight, get over and done with quicker. Also, looking at physics, you do something faster, you don't have you might not have to put as much physical effort into it, but also the rider might be feeling the horse back off because it's not wanting to do it, ride harder, and then you actually have a response to the rider's actions. So the rider's influence could be confusing what the picture looks like as well.

SPEAKER_02 55:45

And there you have someone who knows what the fuck they're talking about. Like it it you it could be Is that five Y's? I I say I could go one more time. Do you want one more Y? Like, you know, go for it. You know, um, give me another one. Um, where did you say last one? Uh you know, um oh, but why want the horse like I suppose like it would work. The thing is, you've gotten to the route without the like I think that might have been four. You could get to the route with you know, you can get there, you can get there sooner, but like the idea is just a probe. Like, I can't think of anything else you haven't kind of covered in that because you were fairly comprehensive, but you were very comprehensive, you understood like the but you know, potential underlying issues, the learned aspect, the rider that was there, like all of the things that were there, and then com like like you know, explained it. If you give the answer of like you know, they're just being lazy, you know, or they're rushing jumps because they enjoy it. Why are they enjoying it? Oh, they love jumping. Well, why do they love jumping? Oh, they just do. Well, no, hold on, you're not giving me any evidence, you know. Like you it it just it very quickly helps you understand if you're talking to somebody who is truly knowledgeable about it and and and being able to interrogate it, but it also helps you develop the like the solutions to the problem, like you know, you've actually broken down to start peeling back the levels, yeah, 100% because I guess the la the last one I was kind of getting ready for was like actually it might be nothing to do with the horse, and it could be a rider phobia.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

It could be that that rider has had a really bad fall or bad experience, and it's causing that rushing through their own anxiety, and that there's nothing wrong with the horse, there's no actual stuff there, but it's a rider-based thing. Yeah, and then the horse learned through repetition that you jump fast, that's the pace that you jump through. You know, repetition reinforces, but it actually stems from a rider. Um yeah, I like that. I think we do that innately anyway. But it's nice to know that there's an actual official structure to that as well.

SPEAKER_02 57:45

It keeps cool. It gives people a little bit to sort of take home with them as well. And like, you know, I suppose, like, you know, again just watch. We're gonna get questioned by our clients now five times. Why, Jen? Why? Yeah, I know I regret actually. Do you know what? I'm in short charge of editing or chore of editing. I I can just take that out so we don't get it. Um yeah, like but the thing is, I suppose that comes on the back of like again, you know, hot takes and stuff as well. Like it's like, you know, these people who don't know what they're talking about, like, you know, uh as I say, like confidence doesn't equal competence, and most of them have no competency whatsoever. They just say it with confidence, like, and you know, it's just like you interrogate them in any it falls apart, you know, and they start getting aggressive and they start getting like defensive about it because they don't actually understand the subject matter, you know. Like at the very start of this.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

Oh, there's your hyper arousal aggression, yes, yeah, because you're overstimulated. Circle back to the original, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

You know, you went single trailer, and I'm like, I've got a single trailer. And I was like, but I didn't, you know, you were presenting a good and cohesive argument. I didn't feel under attack in any shape, way, or form. I'm like, I like my trailer, you know, and you were like, Yeah, it's a bit bigger than the other ones, but I'm like, Yeah, but I see your point, you know, it could do this, that, and the other if it doesn't have good axles. Like, because you're talking about it from a knowledgeable perspective and it's engaging and it's a conversation. You're not going in there going like, you know, I'm right, you're wrong, I'm not gonna listen to anything else. Like, you know, there's no like again, we interrogated that and had a conversation about it. Like, but I find that people who don't understand the subject matter don't can't interrogate things and they are so entrenched in that in that worldview that there's no conversation. And then that happens because they don't have the ability, you know, they don't have the knowledge to be able to have that, have a deeper conversation about something, you know.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

But but also we're getting into human psychology here of like rejection as well. Yeah. So like dismissal, rejection, inferiority, fear of looking silly, which is inferiority as well, and just you know, hearing defensiveness or a differing opinion and taking that as some sort of like rejection is a big one as well. The people listen so yeah, so many people have no idea that that's what they're experiencing. When they've had when they hear something that's challenging, they feel some sort of discredit like being discredited or they're being attacked when actually it could be completely factual, it just doesn't agree with what they think. And actually it's a intellectual conversation, but it becomes a very personal attack, and that adds a whole new complexity to animal behavioural science because we have to get through the first layer, which is the human behavioural science, uh which are still animals by the way, but you know, we like to talk about humans separately.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:39

Yeah, like well, we're we're a bit more complex remote, but you know, because of the way we speak and stuff, and we are you know, the the complex social structure and the way we've evolved, which makes it even harder, and communities and stuff as well, and the way that's shaped, like which is effectively you know, um what you're kind of explaining as well. But yeah, like this that there's the sort of a shame involved in two um because we want to be part of that social community.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:09

I genuinely think this is our most tangented episode ever. So thank you so much for your question because you kept us on the rails. Do you? And we honestly thought we might get through a few different ones, as in a few different listener questions. Because we do have more questions. There is no hope for us. Yeah, no, I think there's like ten of them at least. Oh, easily, easily. So we need to get through.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

Yeah, because there's as they so you know, so to give people kind of highlight, you know, because I I you before we go, you know, round it off. Uh, do you have any more unpopular opinions or hot takes? I think I've run out of steam.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:41

Oh, hundreds, but not nobody needs to hear anymore. Okay. No.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:47

Nobody needs to hear anymore. Unless you want to, in which case, guys, you know, just let us know. Um, but yeah, no, thank you for your message. Yeah, we have like about 10 voice notes, and then we I've got another sort of like 10 text message ones as well, where people have sent them in anonymously. And like, you know, I say just like with this one today, if you know you want to tell us where you're from or your name, or you don't want to say any of that, that's absolutely fine. You can always text me. Um the phone number is in the the description for the podcast. You can WhatsApp me. Um, and if you wanted to do it as a voice note, you'd be included in the podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Or if you just want to send a text message um via WhatsApp, or you can send an email to us, either, uh, either of us anytime. Um, and hopefully, hopefully um you like this sort of structure. It has been good for us. It's kept us. We've actually answered the question as well, because we didn't answer Susie's question last week.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:39

This is true. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we we answered it ten times over in different ways. Oh she she sent me a message and went, I listened to that, you didn't answer my question. Oh no, Susie's, no, Susie's we didn't. And I think I said that in the episode, like I don't think we even answered that. But this time, this time I feel like we did answer, but we answered it five different ways.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In in our the way that we do. Um, so yeah. Um, yeah, so I suppose till till next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:08

Yep, till next time. Looking forward to the next one. And we will be doing another listener question. So keep an ear out, guys. And yeah, if you do want to send in your own voice notes or questions, it would be massively appreciated. You're more than welcome to send a message and keep it anonymous. But we like hearing your voices, and we've actually had such a lovely array of accents that you will soon be hearing on future episodes. Um, so please feel free to add them because, in all honesty, there is a distinct lack of English accents. Oh, there really is. And there is a the there's there really is. I'm so happy. Um so English listeners, Barbara. Sorry, I'm you know where I live.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:46

But the thing is, the thing is, I'm so happy because Jen is so competitive, right? And I was waiting for this to happen. I didn't even bring this up, right? I said nothing. I was gonna wait until we were a few episodes into answering these, and for Jen to be like, why is there so many Irish accents and there's no like English or Scotch? You know, like Britain's just not representing here because Jen will get really competitive.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:10

Our first one is Canadian. There are some Scottish ones in there, so I'm happy with that as well. And we have a very questionable German-Austrian one, which question is but we but we but we know who you are.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:23

You know. Um so yeah, but this is you trying to justify why you're not losing. Um and to try and motivate my listen the listeners. Come on. Uh so yeah, so it will become a um at first a nice competitive edge until Jen gets upset that she's losing. Um but anyway, is that enough? It's enough. That's enough. This can stop now. Thanks again, guys. Uh until next time. If you made it this far.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

See you next time.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:57

Bye. Bye bye.