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Dangerous at Both Ends, Tricky in the Middle
Welcome to Dangerous at Both Ends, Tricky in the Middle.
In the world of equine behaviour and training, there's a vast sea of information, research, and opinions that can sometimes make your head spin. It can be challenging to sift through it all and distinguish fact from fiction.
So, how do we navigate this?
Well, we've decided to tackle it head-on through candid, informative chats.
We dive deep into the critical topics, exploring different perspectives in an effort to reach well-informed conclusions.
Our podcast is your guide to understanding and dissecting tricky, and potentially dangerous topics of equine behaviour and training. We approach these subjects with a commitment to science, compassion, and constructive dialogue.
Join us as we demystify the world of horses, separating myths from realities, and empowering you with knowledge to foster a deeper connection with your equine companions.
Tune in to Dangerous at Both Ends, Tricky in the Middle and embark on a journey of discovery with us 🐴🎙️
Dangerous at Both Ends, Tricky in the Middle
"What Are We Getting Wrong About Equine Nutrition?" With Isabelle D’Costa - Part One
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This week, we are delighted to welcome Isabelle D’Costa, MSc, PAS, founder of Honos Nutrition Co.
Izzy is an equine nutritionist and Professional Animal Scientist whose work combines evidence-based nutrition with a practical, individual approach to each horse. Across this two-part conversation, Izzy joins us from Canada 🍁 for a two-part conversation about the complicated relationship between nutrition and behaviour, helping us revisit our previous calming-supplements episode, right a few wrongs and separate genuine nutritional science from clever marketing.
(I'm Legal required to state that Jen won the Calming supplement Episode...)
You can find Izzy and learn more about her work at: https://www.honosnutrition.ca/
#ClappingIsFun , as we Force our guests to do Admin. Come join the maddness and be forced to work... that's our CTA 🤣
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Meet Your Hosts
Barbara Hardman (Bright Horse Equiation)
www.brighthorse.ie
📧barbara.j.hardman@brighthorse.ie ☎️+353 85 143 8688
Jen Nash (The Equine Method)
www.theequinemethod.co.uk
📧 Info@TheEquineMethod.co.uk ☎️+44 7902920923
Um to sync us up. And then I have an introduction that I wrote. It's gonna feature nickel nickel back. Um so we're gonna do that. Izzy count us down. Oh, you wanna put this in? Oh I feel I feel like Katie counted us down for the claps last time. So I feel like it's doing a guest thing. Yeah. Okay, so Izzy, if you go one, two, three, clap and then you clap, you give me that.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. Okay, perfect. Wait, are we clapping on clap or am I gonna do one, two, three, clap and then clap? Dude or something.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. What what would you like? What would you like?
SPEAKER_00Um, maybe one, two, three, clap, and then clap after clap if that works for you. Clap after clap.
SPEAKER_04Love it. Clap after clap. Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_03Off you go. All right, one, two, three, clap. Okay, and now what you have to do is say another one for safety.
SPEAKER_01Okay. I got the countdown. One, two, three, clap. Great, that's it. Perfect. Well done.
SPEAKER_03Um okay Jen's gonna want me to Jen wants me to keep that in now. Um I really do. I love that. I just love the clap after clap. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04It ruins my intro that I wrote. Oh, no, I'm gonna do it anyway, and Izzy, just you're not here. Um, okay, so Jen, before we start, we actually have a guest today. Do it! It doesn't work. It doesn't work. Um, and I wouldn't mind, but my next sentence is we didn't do a particularly good job introducing things last time, and we have failed this time too. So all right, fuck now. We just sort of start talking. This time we just start clapping.
SPEAKER_03Um so I really do want to properly fluff uh our guest today before we begin because she deserves a lot of fluffing. So we are joined by Isabel DeCosta. Hopefully I've said that right, um, an amazing equine nutritionist, a professional animal scientist and founder of Honours Nutrition. She is based in the lovely Canadia, um, as we say here on Dangerous of Bothlands and Tricky in the Middle, or I do. Um, or or you can also say Canada is also an accepted answer.
SPEAKER_04Izzy, is it Canadia or Canada?
SPEAKER_03I like both. Both. So careful. And she is from the all the home of all things great, such as Nickelback and Ryan Reynolds. Um, and next is going to be Izzy. Uh we hope that Izzy will essentially become the next Nickelback of Equine Nutrition. Uh, I really hope he gets to produce at least nine albums and an EP because we all need to hear more from her. Uh, this is my scripted base as you can tell.
SPEAKER_04Um so some of you might remember that myself and Jen, we recorded an episode about Kammy supplements.
SPEAKER_03So today we're gonna find out how much we got right and more importantly, how much we got wrong. Um, Izzy's gonna write our wrongs, hopefully in a very nice and gentle way, because we have egos and we don't want to be too much wrong. Uh so welcome, Izzy. Uh lovely to have you on the podcast. Did I fluff you enough?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was so sweet. I also like the nickelback. I wasn't expecting the nickelback reference, or like, but I like it. It was a it was a good twist. I thought you were gonna talk about our almost meet cute, but didn't happen. So that's what I was actually prepared for.
SPEAKER_03I don't know the story, so someone tell the story. I don't know. Oh please, Izzy, tell the our almost meet cute, um, which devastated us when we figured it out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so there was a conference, so I did both my degrees at the University of Guelph, um, and there was a conference that was held there when I was in I think my undergrad. I think that yeah, so was that 2019? It doesn't matter. It was a long time. It's all blur. Yes. Wasn't that long ago It feels like a lifetime ago.
SPEAKER_00Um, but the missed opportunity.
SPEAKER_01Um but Barb was gonna be there. Well well Barb was there and I was supposed to be there, but then our it didn't line up and we didn't meet, and I can't remember if we were Instagram friends then or not. I was thinking about this. Were we oh my goodness makes it even worse, heartbreaking. Yeah, so you were like half an hour from my house, and I didn't even didn't even get to have our meat cute. That's okay.
SPEAKER_03And that was when I was it'll happen soon. Yeah, 100%. We just need to find another conference, you know. But the thing is, the the worst thing about that was because I was presenting on nutrition, like you know, feeding behavior and horses, and that was my presentation, like it just felt like the perfect time for us to align. But oh look. Say Lebi.
SPEAKER_01You guys were all like a meat, like a meat scary. I'll just like show up outside your house one day.
SPEAKER_02With yogurt, find the house with the yogurt, you'll know where you are. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00There we go. Apollo smell.
SPEAKER_03I am sick of the yogurt slander, okay? Like and the great thing is all the yogurt chat happened before recording, so listeners have no idea what we're on about. Um, I put yogurt on my house. Um and stories there, carry on. Great, perfect. Thank you. So so if we jump straight in then, um, like I think it's really important that we get this right up front and center. Izzy, how well did we do on the calming supplements podcast? How wrong was Jen? And how right was Barbara.
SPEAKER_01No, I think you guys both did a really good job. And I don't think like anything I have a I have it on my notepad, but I had written down two columns, like a gen column and a bum up column. They were one, two won, two won. There were no one no one said anything that was super crazy. Like I think both of you, like all the points that you made were really consistent with the recommendations that I make with a grand client. Um I get asked about common supplements a lot. Um, so I don't know who won, but I think I think Jen had the most to say. I think about common supplements. I don't know if that means that that's a win. I will take that as a point.
SPEAKER_02I will I will I will take that as a win. It's fine. I will take it as a win. Thank you so much, Izzy. This has been wonderful. Thanks for coming on the show.
SPEAKER_03This is such a politician's answer, by the way. Do you know I sound fine? Oh, that's made my day. That has that has brightened my day. Thank you. Yeah, well, to be fair, Jen's had a rough day, so I'll give it to her because I'm that gracious.
SPEAKER_00So kind.
SPEAKER_03You mentioned there that you're like it's something that your clients ask you about a lot. So just from that side of things, like, because I know we've jumped into this in a very even with my wonderful introduction, um, in the usual chaotic fashion, what services do you provide to your clients? Like, what are they looking for? Just so people can get an idea. Like, obviously, equine nutrition could do lots of different things. So, what is it that you offer your clients and where then does the calming supplement conversation fall into that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so as an independent equine nutritionist, um, I kind of do a couple different things. My kind of main focus, of course, is working with horse owners, um, because I basically get to just meet people's horses for work, so that is always really fun. Um, and a lot of my research focused on like individualized nutrition. So we're really focusing on that horse's individual needs, their individual like genetic predispositions, their individual metabolisms, um, and really kind of fine-tuning the diet according to that, because a lot of the kind of common diet issues that we have usually are just because we're not considering that horse's individualized needs. Um, so I work with a lot of horse owners for their horses to get their horse's diets really dialed in and balanced, and then based on how their horse is responding to that diet, we're able to make a couple of tweaks kind of along the way to really fine-tune it and get it working as best as possible for that horse. Um, so I have a big range of clients, which is really fun. I have some like show horse clients, I have a lot of clients who just love their horses and just love hanging out with them. And I think that's always really nice to have horses who are retired and their horse owner, their owners are still willing to invest in their nutrition and make sure it's a hundred percent perfect for them. Um, but for my my performance clients, we're always kind of thinking about how can we feed them, one, to support that performance and two, to keep them happy in it. And that's usually where the calming supplements come up because we have these performance horses and we're stressing them out, like going to shows and all that is stressful for a prey animal. Um, and that is kind of where we get clients who are like, oh, they go to the show and they're stressed, and or they go to the show and they become less reliable, and they're kind of looking for nutritional strategies to kind of target that. And unfortunately, how kind of marketing works is supplement companies really want you to think that the solution is a common supplement.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. No, it's it's it's it's so interesting that you say that because you say they are prey animals and we're asking them to compete at these high stress events. But what I like that you've said is the fact that the owners and the clients that you work with recognize that their animal is stressed in that environment and while well-meaning, wants to do something about it. And because there's a huge marketing like campaign for calming supplements, they've seen it and they're asking you about it. Like, you know, which is wonderful because at least if they're asking you about it or asking me and Jen about it, they're they're actually starting to dive into they're already what's the word that I want, Jen? Challenges? Yes, exactly. Interested. Yeah, there's an awareness, which is great because unless you have awareness of an issue, you you can't start. Um, Izzy, I just wanted to something you said there about obviously a different range of clients, and you might not have a conclusive answer to this, which is fine, but do you do you feel like you have maybe the majority of more performance active sport owners who are looking for the calming supplements or more general horse owners? Is there a sway one way or is it pretty broad across the spectrum?
SPEAKER_01I find it's kind of a mix. So I I think the kind of main factor for the horse owners who do have the calming supplements, it does seem to be the horse owners who don't have the horses at home. So they're boarded out. And maybe they're getting feedback from the barn that they're at, that's like the staff are having a hard time managing the horse and things like that, or their coach is when they are going off property, their coach is saying, like, they're really stressed by this. So it's like a really interesting mix because I think there's some horses that I have who are the performance types, and it is kind of that performance stressor that is that main stressor, and that's the main reason why we have the horse owners considering whether something like a common supplement would be the solution. But then we also have some horses who are just kind of struggling with day-to-day life and because the horse owner can't control all of those stresses because they don't own the property or they can't really control their environment and they're trying to find a solution in a product. Um, so it's a really interesting mix because I think a lot of the common supplements are actually just marketed for performance horses. But I think we're all expo like we're exposed to that marketing anyway. So even if people aren't necessarily competing at that level, um, or if they not yeah.
SPEAKER_03No, but also like if uh a supplement like it's good marketing to, you know, say, Oh, this is for performance horses, and I'm like, me and my little blossom are gonna make it, like, you know, if we buy this supplement, because it still ends up applying to your everyday horse owner, because you know, it it's the same rate, same way that like celebrities work, like I want to be like them. It's the same reason any marketing works, like it's why there's sexy people selling dishwasher tablets, because you know, it's like it's not me going like oh, I just want to get the dishes clean, um, because that sells, and it's the same thing with performance supplements. Like, here's this calming supplement, here's how you can make your horse perform, because ultimately the main people who are buying them are everyday horse owners, because a lot of the professional people are probably getting sponsored.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. And I think sometimes horse owners forget that when we do have this like ex in I don't know if it's the same for you guys because I know the social media landscape's a bit different, um, but like influencer marketing is really big here and we'll have like a really big like horse influencer who may or not be a professional, um, and they will get provided a free product and then they will post about using that product, but are they using it because it works or because they're getting paid to promote it? Yeah. Um, and it's really tricky, I think, for the horse owner who's just living their life and working their full-time job just to afford their horse to be able to like read between the lines on that.
SPEAKER_03And I would say as well, like it's I mean, I I'm sure Jen, you're the same, like, because you know, we have an online presence, um, I get emails all of the time um from various supplement companies that ask me if I'll try it with my own dog, if I'll give them a testimonial, um, if I sell this for them, like a lot of it tends to be dog stuff as well, um, is what I get. Um, and I won't promote them here by because but they spam me all the time to say if you sell this, we'll give you like 10% or 15% on a commission. I mean, I just delete all of them, um, for the most part, because I mean my general thing is like when it comes to my dog and my horse clients, they're already paying to get me out, so I don't really want to be recommending certain types of food for them or like you know, brands or supplements. I kind of want to go, okay, what can you buy in your day-to-day shop that is affordable and accessible to support that dog or that horse's nutrition, like you know, during the the winter. Um, like I don't know, do you call it sweet or turnip in Canada?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think usually turnips. That's what we call it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's like we call it turnip too. Um, but it's really accessible. Yeah, it's really accessible during the the winter. Like, you know, it it's a season it's a seasonal root vegetable um and it's super cheap. You can buy it here for like 70 cents, massive big turnip. Cut that up, high fibre, right? Low sugar, um, and something nice that you can give to your horse if they enjoy it, or celery um is another one, and you know, it has other vitamins and minerals in it, um, you know, and then so I try and find a way to to incorporate seasonal veg into enrichment activity so it supports the behaviour and it keeps the cost low for for clients. So if it's during the summer or the spring, maybe we can add the odd orange in, you know, including the skins. Um banana's a nice one as well. Depends, some of them don't like bananas. Like, but you know what I mean? Try and find something that's in your your day-to-day shop um that your horse is going to enjoy eating that isn't just a load of supplements put in, but you know, correct me, is that a good approach to take? Is that a bad approach or combination?
SPEAKER_01No, I like that a lot because even that's really similar to the approach I try to take with my own clients as well. And like being an independent professional, I think your clients I think that's probably a win for them, like because they know you're not gonna touch a certain brand or anything, like they are your client and your loyalty is to them or normally to their animal. Um, so like I really I like that too, and keeping it simple and I think accessible is such a good point because I think sometimes, especially in the horse world, like the equine industry really wants you to think like if you spend more, that means it will work. Or it's a premium product and it's gonna and that's not really the case. Um, like one of my I don't know if it's the same there, um, one of my like biggest ops around here is we have like maybe two of like a hundred available electrolyte supplements are actually formulated correctly, but all of them have brand range and price, and there's some that'll be like sixteen dollars a day. And it's like it's not doing anything, and it's still really expensive. So I think as horse owners and as like professionals who are working with horse owners, um, to kind of give them a solution that's gonna be effective and kind of convey that it doesn't have to be the most expensive option to be the best option for their horse is like a really good way to go.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_03So I guess uh one one thing that comes up with clients a lot is how do we know what we're buying is effective.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a really good one too, because I think every product will say like science-based or science backed, and that doesn't necessarily mean that it's been like actually evaluated in research. Um, so what I the gold standard, we want a product that has been tested in houses at the dose that they are telling you to feed. Um, but equine research is quite expensive, so that's not always practical. Um, but that's definitely where working with a professional who can sort through all the research and sort through reformulation, and they can be the one who reaches out to the manufacturer and says, What's actually in here? Because you're only listing two things, and I'm sure that's not all that's in there. Um, applying that can re make it a little bit easier for clients. Um, but as a rule, most supplements really lack any efficacy and or any evidence of efficacy, so maybe they have a benefit, but without the evidence to say it's it's hard. So I usually recommend focusing on a really good base diet and a really good like species appropriate management. So like their forage and their friends and their freedom and balancing according to the forage first. Um, and then if we wanna be adding if we have room in our budget as well, to be adding in some targeted supplements, um, definitely doing that with a professional can make sure you're spending money on something that's actually gonna be effective and even helpful for your horse because there are things that work for some horses based on what they need and aren't really gonna do the trick for other horses because every situation is unique, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_03Can I just ask you you mentioned a term there which I don't know if people understand, um, and I definitely like a little bit of clarity. You said that an equine nutritionist can do a reformulation. What does that mean?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so if you are a like any qualified equine professional will be able to look at the formulation that is on a product and kind of do a deeper dive into that. So what we usually see on equine supplements is there'll be they'll claim that they are science-backed, which will make our like us horse owners think, oh, like we've actually tested this product and it kind of makes us trust it a little bit more. Um, but usually they use science-backed to mean that they've read some existing research and have pulled inspiration from it. And unfortunately, when we actually go and look at that research, the dose is different or the target um ingredient is not in the same bioavailable form. Um, so vitamin C is a really common one, so and even most vitamins, um, vitamin E is a really common one here as well, where a supplement will be like, Oh, we're adding a hundred IU international units of vitamin E per day, and then they'll be like, Oh yeah, like vitamin E is really important for this.
SPEAKER_03Can I just sound like the Can I just interrupt you? Sorry, like because you're you're you're talking about something that's really fascinating, but you said bioavailable form. So does that mean like in the case of vitamin C, like we could give vitamin C to an animal, but they actually can't process it and use it correctly. So does bioavailable form mean like a vitamin C supplement that they can actually use? Because like if I if I want copper, right? Like I'm gonna break it down very simply, um, and I swallow a copper coin, that's not a bio-available form, right? I've just swallowed a coin. Um don't do that. But you know, am I understanding that correctly?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%. That's that's a really good example. Um, but something we see. Yeah. Don't understand that now and use it for clients. Yeah, don't don't eat coins. Um, but yeah, like that's that's a perfect analogy that unfortunately not all ingredient qualities are the same. And sometimes what we'll see on the front of a label, it'll say, if we're going back to our copper, it will say it'll say contains copper. Um, but is does it actually contain copper in a way that one, your horse's body can even use, and is it even in an amount that's going to make a physiologically significant difference? Um, so that's where like having a nutritionist on your horse's care team, they can dive into that 'cause a lot of math and it's a lot of reading and the average horse person, I'm sure, does not have the time and idea. But you lost me in math. Like Yeah, literally. Yeah. So that's one of the iffy things about supplements. 'Cause there's definitely a like a lot of supplements that sound really cool. And like I like even find myself getting pulled in. I'm like, oh yeah, like that's really interesting. And then you flip it over and you look at the guaranteed analysis and it's what like a lot of the like North American nutritionists will call it like fairy dust ingredients. So they're just I love that. Like sprinkling in. Yeah. And it's not really gonna do anything, but it looks good on the label.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we don't have that phrase here, but you can guarantee we're all gonna steal it. Oh we haven't done it is officially fairy dust. I just I just wondered how much I literally had this uh a client the other weekend and it kind of covers a lot of what we're gonna talk about today, one of them being tryptophan, which I'm sure we're gonna get into.
SPEAKER_02But they also asked me the question of well, because they were paying quite a lot of money for other herbal stuff, it was valerian root, chamomile, like fennel, all fairly nice.
SPEAKER_03I said, Look, this is a nice topper, like there's a nice enrichment, I'm sure your horses enjoy eating all these things. Um and then they said, Well, you know, would it be any harm if I started just growing my own chamomile for my horse and making eating actual flowers? And I said, Look, from an environment enrichment activity, like I personally don't see any issue with that from a nutrition point of view, it's like I I couldn't tell you, but can we how much I guess can we put confidence in natural herbs? And if are we better off feeding the real things to say actual channel flowers, or are we better off doing something that's manufactured? Is there a risk in giving them the real thing? Sorry, and that's like five questions, but I had more questions as I kept talking.
SPEAKER_01Um Yeah, so those are definitely and that's like kind of something like I feel like you guys are your kind of question space is more into herbs than we are here in North America. I feel like now people are starting to think about it a little bit more. Um, but I don't know if that's just like a cultural thing or if it's a climate thing, or it's really interesting. Um, but I won't go I won't get a strategic on that. Um but the herbals are definitely something that like for enrichment I do like where we kind of can run into concerns is the kind of again the that idea of bioavailability or bioactives is what that plant might be providing that horse is going to vary depending on lots of different variables. Well, kind of like hay.
SPEAKER_03I was gonna say is that similar to dose delivery? Like I know we talked about like I say my background's pharma, so is the bioavailability similar to dose delivery, or have I got that wrong?
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's gonna be a little bit different, and I so we can come back to it later.
SPEAKER_04That's fine. I just wanted to ask. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is my edge, this is my CPD as much as anything else.
SPEAKER_01You see, yeah, so for the herbs, like where I get because one that's really common here is um spirulina, and and that's like an algae, so whether or not since they're gonna put um anyway, the active constituents in there that are thought to actually elicit any benefits, they it the range of those can really vary. Um another one is like hemp seed. Hemp seed is one that's quite common, are becoming more common here in Canada because it it grows well in our climate. Um, and it has actually it was really interesting, it's probably a tangent. It has a really interesting omega-6 that's actually anti-inflammatory um called GLA. Um, but the concentration of GLA in different varieties of hemp seed can vary between like I think it's like 5 to 30 percent. So that's like a big difference in that concentration. So again, when we're just kind of feeding herbs to our horses, those don't come with a guaranteed analysis. So, say our target for one of those bioactives is like 1.5 grams per day. We don't really know if the concentration of that in there to be able to actually achieve a physiologically effective or therapeutic dose. Um, so that is where the herbal ones can be a little bit interesting. And like it would be really, really cool if there was a way for that to be standardized a bit more. Um, because I think a lot of horse owners are a little bit more open to like it seems a bit more spacious appropriate, I think, to a lot of people getting like herbs for some type of therapeutic rather than adding a powder. Um, but it's just it's hard to kind of control the variables. So, and there's also concerns we have kind of drug interactions, which is kind of like a whole different spiel.
SPEAKER_03Um Yeah, that was actually gonna be my follow-up question was if we're thinking about especially performance horses who might be on other medications which are FBI approved, because there are medications out there and a lot of competition horses through their professional lifetime will need medical support. But what what are the risks of then feeding something where you don't actually know the dosage?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. And there I think there was actually I can't remember if it was a herbal supplement, but there was a supplement that the Paris Olympics where um Yeah, 'cause I know it ended up being contaminated with trazodone, so that horse got like a positive drug test, and then the main like the drug or not the drug, the supplement manufacturer said, Oh, like it occurred from like a raw material. Um, so that kind of contamination, like even if we are feeding our an herbal product, not all herbals are um like legal. Um, so there's always that contamination risk, even if we're not kind of considering there's also a risk that a lot of these herbs unfortunately haven't been kind of evaluated with drugs, so we don't know how they'll like overlap, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna go a little bit left field and Izzy put you on the spot a little bit. Or Izzy. Does Izzy have her? I just I have a burning question because it does my head in. It's turmeric. Yeah. W what is the fascination with turmeric? Because if I'm correct, if I'm wrong, to feed it to a horse, say 500 kilogram horse, is something crazy like four or five tablespoons, and nobody feeds at that level. But what is it, is there anything that known about turmeric that is beneficial for horses?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so the kind of fascination with turmeric actually comes because there's some evidence for um cumin, which is like one of the bioactives in there, to have anti-inflammatory benefits. But as you've mentioned, like it's it kind of goes back to that concentration and bioavailability and bioactive type conversation that we were just having, that the amount that you would have to feed again just to have some benefit is not really practical for most horse owners. And usually it's gonna be too expensive for like a supplement company to say feed a hundred grams of this active ingredient, because then you're not gonna want to buy it. So it's one that the kind of bioactive in it does have some evidence, but how we kind of implement that in the horse's diet, it's not really a practical solution. Something we've been seeing here in North America, um, and this has stemmed more from our like um typically what we we see is we get a trend, I'm sure it's a say the same case for you guys. Um we'll see a trend in like human medicine or like dogs, and and then it'll pop up in in horses. Um so what we're getting in kind of in our like space over here at least, is there are some kind of pharmaceutical type companies who are trying to figure out how to get a really concentrated dose of that curcumin, which is the active like anti-inflammatory ingredient that is in turmeric. Um, but even the data on that is not super strong. So, like even I think there was a study that said I think it was like 10 to 15 grams of like 99% pure curcumin, and there was no significant effect. So even at that high dose of that concentration of that really high concentration thing, um, in in the actual animal, it's not eliciting an effect, but I think what a lot of studies are pulling from is like test tube research where we're like, oh yeah, it's anti-inflammatory. Like can it might it might be, but not really a dose is that we're not scaling up. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And like I've had this conversation with like reach out to a lot of supplement manufacturers on behalf of clients because I'll have a client who say, I'm really interested in this product, and like I know there's not a ton of research on it, but like I kind of want to feed it. I'm like, okay, well, let me look into the formulation to see if it's even going to be remotely plausible that it could have a benefit. And a lot of the questions the conversations that I have with supplement manufacturers is okay, like you have this active ingredient that has not been tested in horses. How are you adjusting your dose like to kind of accommodate that because it's only been tested maybe in humans or in dogs? And the really tricky thing with horses and because I think the same is true for meds, like the dose adjustment isn't we can't just scale it by body weight. Um, so it's really it's really tricky to just extrapolate research findings from other set like other studies and other species to horses when it comes to supplements or drugs. So when we have these products that haven't been tested in horses and they're like, oh yeah, we adjusted the dose based on other research, we still don't know if that's going to be effective, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_03It's so interesting. Fascinating. Yeah. I feel like I'm just like I'm just nodding and like, this is so interesting. Thank you, Izzy. Like poor Izzy. Hopefully that made sense. You're just you're just like, we're just tapping your brain at the moment. Because like what I find is, and apologies if you can hear hear um bird song, um, my dog wants to go to the bathroom, so I'm now sitting outside.
SPEAKER_01Um and I w I wondered who it was, and I was like, oh I can hear is a bird song. And it's impressive.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like I and as they like she's she's like, I want to sit outside and she rules my life. So uh it's it's not gonna it's it's that's it, it's on the it's on the audio. Um but I always think as well, it's like do you remember oh I mean it it was it was doing the rounds for a while, like about ten years ago, everyone was doing that cinnamon challenge where they tried to take a spoonful of cinnamon and you know it's like oh yeah yeah. Whenever I think of that dose of turmeric that we would have to give our horses, I feel like we're forcing them to do the cinnamon challenge.
SPEAKER_04Do they want to? Yeah, they're like they're like they're like, Barbara, why would you do it to me? I just want an apple.
SPEAKER_03Like, you know, like there's some I guess because we're trying to do the best for our horses and we're trying to understand everything. Um, and we see this stuff, and as you say, it's like, does it actually scale up? Yes, we can see that, like in a test tube or in a lab condition, but you know, it's so expensive to do horse research. Um, so we don't actually know what happens when we scale it up and what are the actual long-term effects.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's unfortunate because there are like the her the herbals, like in other um in other species. So one of my um profs that I had in grad school was really into like fish nutrition, um, which is really interesting. Um I don't know if like aquaculture is as big as a lot of people.
SPEAKER_03Scotland definitely I worked there for I worked in an aquacultural place for a while for um Oh very cool yeah, crawfish. Um I was interested in the behavior. Um not so much then they wanted to scale it up so they could produce it, but yeah, for me it was the behavior I was interested in. But yeah.
SPEAKER_01Very interesting. There's something like cool because I think fish, um, I don't know if fish research is and I apologize if there's any like fish scientists listening because I I'm not super familiar with the fish. You're gonna offend all of our fish listening.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm I'm sure it's uh I'm sure it's a big group.
SPEAKER_01Um, but like there have been some studies in fish where they have kind of tested some of these more like herbal-based bioactives and they've had side effects and it's been like digestive type side effects, and like knowing that horses are so sensitive digestive-wise anyway, that's why I get a little bit nervous about us using these herbals that haven't really been tested in horses and like whether we should be scaling those intakes without actual equine research testing that to see if it's gonna be harmful. Um, because unfortunately, as as horse owners, like I think it's actually appealing to want to kind of use any any supplement because we just want a horse to feel the best they can. Um, but it's really unfortunate that we have a lot of these products that haven't been tested in horses, a doses that haven't been tested in horses. And at that rate, your horse basically is becoming the test subject, and that's not really what you signed up for as a horse owner. Like you just want your horse to feel better. Um so that's where I get a little a little frustrated with some of the supplement companies that I I wish that we could spend more money on research and less money on marketing.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03But Mark Shane sells, so Mark Shane is a better investment. Yeah. Yeah. It it is. It is. It's such a true point though, isn't it? That the the whole industry is basically built on the shoulders of just people wanting to do well by their animals. It's quite sad when you think about it, it's just these are all just horse owners just just wanting the best and just hoping that what it says on the label is true and for the most part of our discussion so far is it can't be trusted, which is just heartbreaking. And I think I said that in the Carmen Supplement one, like, and I don't know if you find that easy, it's like the way they talk about certain supplements, it's like ha copper has an effect on your muscles, which is a true statement, but you might be trying to train a horse for event riding and want to develop their muscles, so you think that that's the appropriate supplement, so you pick that up in a shop, like off the shelf, thinking you're gonna do the right thing and it might not actually be the best thing for your horse.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I think it's trucky too, because like the horse owner's not the one to blame, like they're the one that's trying to solve the issue that they're seeing. I think the marketing gets frustrating, and it's not all companies do this. I think some of them do a really good job of kind of staying in their lane, but I think a lot of them they kind of want to distract you from key foundational things in your horse's care or in their diet. Um, and then we even if that potentially could be a product that maybe could have some benefit, like when we're not hitting those key foundational things, like is the rest of the diet even balanced or suitable? Um, like that's usually where we should be starting. Um, or again, like I don't know this is something you guys see where you are as well, but in like all of our Facebook, like horse Facebook forums, there'll be a horse owner who's struggling with an issue, and then they'll be like, Oh, like I'm on this joint supplement, so I don't think it's pain, or I'm on a gastric supplement, so I don't think it's ulcers. I think that's not like the horse owner's fault, it's the the marketing behind the products. They like have marketed as this kind of like you're speaking our language, and it can't be pain, yeah. It's a guarantee.
SPEAKER_03It can't be pain, they jump on 120, and I'm like, Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, that's that's you know, our entire life is is exactly that.
SPEAKER_03But maybe maybe it's a good time to have the tryptophan conversation because it's an ingredient in so many calming supplements. It's like, oh we've got them on a camera, so you know, that should be doing something. Then you look at the back and you see the ingredients and my heart sinks every single time now. Um but I mean I only know a bit of it. I don't know the extent of it, whether that's a conversation we can have as to why it's a troubling ingredient.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. Um, and tetrafin is one that is definitely it's really interesting, um, because I again I don't know what's saying where you guys are, but here a lot of it will be a lot of the marketing around are like calming supplements. Even the ones that are like tetrafin-based is like, oh like no risk of side effects. Compl like and then when we actually look at the the literature, um not only has one supplementation not been consistently shown to even have any calming effect, but like high doses or sustained doses can actually cause issues. So there's one study that by day three of supplementation, horses actually were becoming more excited, their cortisol was higher, their heart rate was higher, and then there's other data that higher doses can reduce their endurance capacity, it can cause um like acute hemorrhagic anemia, like how garlic would. Um and then there's like the serotonin syndrome concern as well. So like there's a lot of serotonin. It's kind of it's it's really interesting that like I think there's one study that I think it fed a crate, if it's a hundred grams, I think that they fed, or 75 a hundred grams, which is more than most people would be feeding, um, cause some respiratory distress. So again, thinking about dose, whether or not that the average horse owner will be feeding that, but we really don't have the data for long-term use either. And there are some common supplements that have a good pack of treptophen in there, and they'll say, Yeah, safe for everyday use, and we don't really know if it is because that's not been tested over a long-term feeding trial. Um, so that's definitely one where it it's not it's like it's a supplement, but it's not as safe as it seems, unfortunately, and it there's not really any quality evidence showing it's even effective, so it's really scary actually. But it's definitely it it it is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So can we have can we have a quick chat about it? Because there will be so many people who've never heard of it. Because I feel like unless you've experienced it, you won't you won't know what serotonin syndrome is.
SPEAKER_02So um Izzy, do you want to lead on it from a nutritional point of view? So what was the with the serotonin syndrome, the tryptophan, what was it? How would somebody know that that was a side effect that they were facing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so in our Equline at least research, um, a lot of the side effects that were but the researchers were guessing were related to serotonin syndrome. We were seeing things like diarrhea, digestive upset, um, a fever, um, some horses could increase the risk of seizures, and then all of this can long term, um, as we've just heard Barb talk about, unfortunately, the life-threatening. Um, so it could be really if you are using a supplement that does have tetrophin in it, and something that's really interesting in both ethnic research and human research is there is an individual variation in how each animal actually uses tetraphen when we're supplementing. Um, it seems like how it in like it increases the serum levels really depends on the individual. So while like this these studies were feeding kind of like 20 to 30 grams up, and then that's typically where we run into hyper excitability and other issues, it could really also depend on that animal's individual metabolism. So that's something that we we do need to be kind of careful about. Um, I know here for some show horses it's common for people to be doubling up on calming supplements. So you might be using one supplement that maybe has 10 grams and we're a little bit less concerned, but then maybe we start doubling up, maybe you're giving them a scoop in the morning, a scoop in the evening, and then a tube of something else, and we need to be kind of tracking that intake, um, because there are side effects that unfortunately can be pretty serious, and we don't really have the data on just how serious those are in horses, but in other species we do. So that should be um just something horse owners should be a little bit more aware of because unfortunately the marketing doesn't really give you any any things to look out for.
SPEAKER_03Because actually that's something I've never thought of, it's something that's really lacking on all feed. I've never thought about this before until we've had this conversation, because you do get it on human medication sometimes where you'll get a warning that says do not take this medication if you're on blah blah blah, or you know, don't consume this if you're on this medication. You know, there's warnings of that you must not convert. We don't have those warnings on anything animal related that I can think of, which is actually quite shocking.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like even here it'll they think the only warning that's ever on a bag is it'll be like do not feed to an animal intended for food. Yeah. But the only food is not yeah, it's not yeah, and it's not like the warning isn't helping the animal's welfare. Like they just have to put it on that for human. Yeah. Um, which is yeah, so concerning.
SPEAKER_03So you're like as I say the question is it's like, well, if it's not fair for human consumption after they had this medication or this supplement, then what's it doing to the animal? Yeah. Um, we have asked you loads of questions, Izzy, and I do have way more. Um, but if we're gonna tie this up as part one, um, 'cause I think we probably if we're happy to do a part two. Um everybody good? Um I think it is only fair to be like, do you have any questions for us? And then we'll answer them and then move on to part two where we can continue to bombard you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I know I I always kind of bother you with questions anyway. Um but something I find a lot of horse owners aren't really aware of is like the feeding behavior aspect and like how like important that it's not just what we're feeding but actually how we're feeding it. Um yeah so I think that it'd be really really interesting to kind of hear like a behaviorist view on that and maybe how we could structure that that feeding management um on this topic kind of promote calm behavior but just also just to promote like normal happy behaviour as well.
SPEAKER_03It's so hard because like so much of what we do with enrichment is in one spot. Um and we know that horses take a step graze take a step graze like so how do you get that movement aspect into nutrition and it's not like us or a dog or you know a cat that sits in one place and eats a meal and is done. And horses have to continually graze and and when I was doing my research with the slow feeders in the stable at night time it was very like I I noted it um across all horses so what they would do is they'd have their right foot forward their left foot back for limb they would take a bite from the slow feeder and they they would do that for one or two bites and then they'd switch and they go left foot forward you know right foot back and then they take a few bites and then they'd switch it and I found that really interesting and I didn't have enough time to do my own data on that but now I'm thinking about it maybe I should um go back and look at it but they switched feet their their forefeet all the time while they were eating interesting and moving back and forth that forelimb and I'm like is that just you know a really ingrained move I I I'm doing a weird mind with my hands right now. You know going left foot forward you know right foot forwards every time a couple of bites but is that so ingrained but movement is so ingrained into you know eating um and that's why we like things like multiple forage sites multiple enrichment sites give them choice so you know if they're in a stable I'm gonna pick on that you know we have a slow feeder we have a hay net we have a pile of hay on the floor you know maybe you've got halage instead of hay like different types maybe you have other enrichment devices and you you have them around the stable so that the horse has a choice to move around you know engage with those different kind of forage devices and it takes a lot of time to do that. And and I would say even in the field like we kind of lack a lot of that in the field. Yes they can move from one point to the other and they have that freedom to graze but sometimes we don't have hedges like hederoes are brilliant like a good hedgerow with like edible forage that you know is healthy for a horse gives them the opportunity to do that. Um Reuben loves little uh sticky sticky weed do you have sticky weed Izzy? Yeah yeah is that what they're called cleavers do you have cleavers Izzy um oh let me google a picture yeah I'm gonna google sticky weed um sticky weed is awesome and I would collect it and put it in my little enrichment bowls what uh oh my god I'm not gonna pronounce the goose grass apparently sticky willy oh sticky willy yeah sticky willy is what we're gonna put it back home sticky willy yeah because we're 12 so good so good it grows like crazy um and it grows it grows in amongst nettles and I swear that must be like an evolutionary protective thing it's so annoying but where you have nettles it grows like wild and I'm like that must be a protective thing the plants learned that there's some sort of thing between humans. Yeah it's brilliant and they love it because it's high fibre there's lots of water in it like there's there's really not a huge amount in it. It's so it grows like crazy. So like I grab it up grab it and it sticks together so it's wonderful. Um so during like the springtime I hoover up loads of it and then I fill like little balls and stuff in stable when there's limited turnout and she loves it. Like um and so does Ruben right like it's a great one you know but it's variation movement like it's not just oh hey or hailage we need to have multiple forage sites um whether that's in the field or in the stable to promote good welfare and I think that would also promote good nutrition but maybe I'm wrong. Can I add to that? So I second everything Barbara said the other thing that I see a lot of there's quite fortunate in the kind of the area of country I am that people are experimenting and becoming more diverse in different housing systems whether that be you know tracks or equicentral or enriched areas within paddocks multi-surfaces open barns in and out like it it's great that there's a movement in the industry trying to be more experimental in the housing systems. I'm still seeing and I've I've kind of borrowed this term from dog training but it I feel like it works for feeding behaviour in horses I see a lot of barrier frustration so even though we have multiple foraging sites the food is always behind something. So even if it's a hay net the horse has to work through the hay net past the hay knit it's still a barrier before they can access the hay and then the force required to then grip and tear and pull that forage even though it's become seriously normalized within the industry is a normal thing we see everywhere it's common. It doesn't mean it's how the horses evolve to eat they've you know rip and tear at grass but the force to grasp some shards of grass and rip that out of the earth compared to sticky hay out of a small hold hay net those are big difference forces and then you've got the angles and the range and like you said it's it's the movement even if we have multiple forage sites we're still then asking that horse to forage in one static position for however long before moving on to the next one and there's there's lots of improvements there is but I feel like there's still a long way to go because I see a lot of horses that would be in so-called optimal housing environments that are still displaying resource guarding behaviors and frustration based behaviors around food because although we think we've offered lots of opportunity and everything else we've put everything behind some sort of barrier and it's hard work for them.
SPEAKER_01That's really interesting because I look at a lot of like cases of like horses who have chronic ulcers and we'll be like feeding free choice free choice hay but in a slow feeder and then the conversation becomes just because we're feeding free choice doesn't mean they're actually consuming enough. Um but and that that kind of frustration point is is really interesting because I think there's a lot of horses at least like again in my local area where I see who then like have free choice access. They always have hay available but we're still seeing like behavioral stereotypes and we're like still seeing some undesirable behavior. So it's not just like having hay available in step one but how we're providing it we need to kind of optimize further which I think is a really cool conversation.
SPEAKER_02I yeah I mean optimized for the individual. Yeah just the exact same time because because you will have horses in those environments which are having the best time of their lives and it suits them perfectly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um and I've just thought of another client who I saw last week and you know I like I said that we've had heat waves in the UK and you know we should be overrun with grass and actually people are having to put hay out in the fields and uh on one establishment they've put out ring feeders which you typically use for cattle um to provide some loose hay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah so it's it's a it's loose hay in a ring feeder so that the horses aren't behind a barrier. There is still a barrier but anyway it just so happens that one of the horses in that field we are suspecting there's a possible neck issue.
SPEAKER_03It's definitely very head shy so the frustration level for that horse has skyrocketed because now there's free access hay but it's behind a barrier that they're not willing to put their body through so that's so stressful and that horse has ulcers. Um it's highly motivated to to ease you know and it windsucks yeah so and now I've just been told it's spending more time windsucking on the hay feeders than eating hay. Which is gutting um but that's how individual is it because you know because the other horses in the field from what I see are all doing really well. So it's so this is hard to do well. Like it really is hard. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh there's no well you could also argue it'd be easy if we just kept horses how they want to be kept. There's the other way you could argue this. But we'll we'll put that one on the shelf.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah so I'd say like questions for part two if you want to keep going um because there's no there I really want to dive into the magnesium calcium ratio that you spoke about Izzy when we were first talking about this. So if we could do that for part two that would be amazing. Um and then sure you can all stay tuned for that. Um like I think we've you know talked so much about like the research and the science I really want to dive into the Omega 3 and 6 um because I think that is something that a lot of ho ho horse owners don't know about and so that'd be amazing if we can pick your brains a bit more about that. Is there anything to cover in part two so you can tease everyone um or Jen spot the polite people in the conversation neither one of us wants to talk over Jen Jen you can give your answer and then Izzy can do hers. I'll be the teacher. Is Jen Thank you can I have your answer please I would like to expand on the magnesium topic towards um it being you don't get it I want to expand on it because it's a really common ingredient claiming behavioural uh counting but there is obviously some evidence in humans for muscles and I would just uh expand that is beyond magnesium calcium was it calcium no what was it carbonate you were looking at magnesium carbon calcium um yeah I feel like carbonate is like a superman thing what's the one oh no no it's it's Star Wars what's the thing that Han Solo was in like the kryptonite no no what was Han Solo in just people screaming at me right now uh Han Solo Indiana Jones yeah it was carbonate my gen you watched Star Wars Han Solo got put in carbonate in Cloud City as an experiment to test it carbonate was fucking Star Wars Alright cool uh Izzy what would you like to cover in in the the second part?
SPEAKER_01Yeah I think it'd be really good to go over even if it just briefly the importance of kind of general diet balance and suitability for behavior and then kind of how that relates to digestive health and behavior. Yeah which might be a topic of itself but I think that's that's something I find a lot of course owners kind of underestimate.
SPEAKER_03Yeah that'd be awesome. Um probably takes another hour and a half to do. Um but yeah we could talk to you forever and at some point we will get you back to do the gut brain access as long as you want to come back because you know we will trap you here forever.
SPEAKER_01No it's good it's good fun and I I have I told with my clients I was coming on here and they're like can we can we ask questions? And I was like maybe maybe so maybe next time I'll get some of my clients to think of some questions because we don't have a ton of like clinical behaviorists here. Um so I think having that having the opportunity for people to ask questions I know like my client basically really interested in so that could be I could ask you guys all the questions for sure.
SPEAKER_03Just tell them just send it on WhatsApp. Like yeah 100% and we'll cover it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah they can send their own voicemails oh my goodness yes I will I'll send it in my my client email blast. You might get a bunch but no 100% okay so we close out part one um Izzy do you want to do a little sign off where can we find you if anybody wants to go and find you on socials or your website I will put information in the description if they want to go and find you but yeah say it here Yeah for sure so I am most active on Instagram my Instagram handle is at onosnutrition cow and then I also have a fairly active um blog where I do a lot of like science fate breakdowns um so my website is www.onosnutrition dot ca um and you can find all my blog articles about my services pictures of my pony all are on both of those. So all the good things.
SPEAKER_03I love that thank you so much. So would you like to give us a clap to say goodbye? Uh I'll say goodbye. Jen say goodbye goodbye that's you this year okay good
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